Curse

BlackSephir · Apr 29, 2008, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

Also, send me Fallout 2 and I'll point out the grind.

There's no need to- you won't be able to point out grind. Because there isn't any. But if I need to send you a copy of FO2 then it'd mean you've never played it, right?

Quote:

Hell, killing X amount of Locusts in Gears of War is practiclly a grind. Kill untill a door opens.

Oh, and by Gears of War you mean THE Gears of War, release on xbrick and PC?
Yeah, "next-gen" games fail a lot. Doesn't mean there aren't games without grind or that grind is a part of a game.
And for the record- http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=130

Antheus · Apr 29, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Why do people want to be essentially "addicted" to Guild Wars?

GW tried to enter MMO arena as one where your character is not limited by some artificial factors. There's a considerable number of players that like the MMO concept, but are incapable in any way to play them due to sheer time constraints.

Original design of GW delivered on that, and even adapted (removal of xp needed to respec, lowering of skill cost, unlocked skills learnable at trainers,...).

That was a mighty appeal.

The reason isn't so much about addiction, it's about having no real alternatives. Every game out there that in any way resembles an MMORPG is a 1-to-1 WoW clone.

It's more about seeing the alternative going away, rather than being so dedicated to GW.

The ultimate problem with grind-based achievements is that there's never enough of them. And trying to satisfy grind oriented players is impossible, since no matter how high the barrier is set, they'll achieve it. Unfortunately, this leaves 99% or 99.99% or 99.9999% of players out of the loop.

There were certain, by now beaten to a pulp, features requested which would improve on certain parts of GW not related to direct combat. And while those were never in any way addressed, adding grind content was never an issue. And still, adding HM was probably a bit more work than adding character customization would be.

It's not about actual absence of content, it's about direction.

Bryant Again · Apr 29, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Hm, I seem to have missed this, and will comment on it since it's the point I support:

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

"All grind is optional because you can complete the story without the pve skills"
- This is the fallacy of the undistributed middle. Yes, you can complete the story line without the PvE skills, however the storyline is a only a small subset of the PvE game.

...That *is* the PvE game. It's the same as what's happened in Final Fantasy, Mass Effect, KotOR, Neverwinter Nights, The Witcher...pretty much *every* RPG. Once you beat the game, you've beaten the game. Why do you feel like you should have to come back? How is Guild Wars different?

Antheus: I'm not sure what you mean about alternatives...Alternatives to WoW? To GW? Because to both I know plenty.

I also don't recall ANet ever wanting to enter the MMO arena. I've always heard them call it a "competitive online RPG" - and it's just that. I think it's more people coming into Guild Wars wanting it to be an MMO that became a problem.

CagedinSanity · Apr 29, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

There's no need to- you won't be able to point out grind. Because there isn't any. But if I need to send you a copy of FO2 then it'd mean you've never played it, right?

Oh, and by Gears of War you mean THE Gears of War, release on xbrick and PC?
Yeah, "next-gen" games fail a lot. Doesn't mean there aren't games without grind or that grind is a part of a game.
And for the record- http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=130

Well now you're just trying to be snide.

Obviously I haven't played every game on the planet, and neither have you. But there is some form of grind in all/most games. If you beat a game once, and go back and play, you're essentially grinding something. It's minor, but it exists.
Your "anti-next-gen" attitude does not mean something isn't true.

I'm not bashing the concept of grind, it's not always a bad thing. More often than not it helps a game's replay value.

keli · Apr 29, 2008, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Guild Wars (this was discussed before)

Bryant Again · Apr 29, 2008, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

Well now you're just trying to be snide.

Obviously I haven't played every game on the planet, and neither have you. But there is some form of grind in all/most games. If you beat a game once, and go back and play, you're essentially grinding something. It's minor, but it exists.
Your "anti-next-gen" attitude does not mean something isn't true.

I'm not bashing the concept of grind, it's not always a bad thing. More often than not it helps a game's replay value.

i.e. Grind is subjective. My friend just the other day was complaining about Proph's 1-20 level grind.

...Yeah, apparently playing the game is grinding now :I

But I think it's the difference between "grind" and "forced grind", and what the majority considers grind.

Thizzle · Apr 29, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

I don't want hear anyhting about the level cap. I can get 20 in 4 hours or less. When I play the game normally you still level up at a good paste.

Alleji · Apr 29, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

Guild Wars (this was discussed before)

I think you mean...

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BlackSephir · Apr 29, 2008, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

Well now you're just trying to be snide.

Obviously I haven't played every game on the planet, and neither have you. But there is some form of grind in all/most games. If you beat a game once, and go back and play, you're essentially grinding something. It's minor, but it exists.

Oh, I see. You haven't played every game on the planet but you just KNOW there is grind in all/most games.
Yeah, and replaying the game isn't grinding. It's called... what was it? Ah, replaying the game. In the above Fallout 2 I can play the first time as a good diplomat and then replay it as a childkilling bastard with flamethrower.

Quote:

...Yeah, apparently playing the game is grinding now :I

Yes, human beings are pretty amazing.

FlamingMetroid · Apr 29, 2008, 11:09 PM // 23:09

I think theres WAY to much grind in GW. GW was a game meant to be played on and off, which is why grind was never a part of prophecies. Adding grind to a game only encourages players to become ravenous about it, and soon you've just got another WoW.

Red Sonya · Apr 30, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Hm, I seem to have missed this, and will comment on it since it's the point I support:

...That *is* the PvE game. It's the same as what's happened in Final Fantasy, Mass Effect, KotOR, Neverwinter Nights, The Witcher...pretty much *every* RPG. Once you beat the game, you've beaten the game. Why do you feel like you should have to come back? How is Guild Wars different?

Antheus: I'm not sure what you mean about alternatives...Alternatives to WoW? To GW? Because to both I know plenty.

I also don't recall ANet ever wanting to enter the MMO arena. I've always heard them call it a "competitive online RPG" - and it's just that. I think it's more people coming into Guild Wars wanting it to be an MMO that became a problem.

That's because they (Anet) Accepted the Awards for MMO of the Year, MMORPG of the YEAR. Had they stepped up and said ...noooo we are sorry,but, we are NOT an MMO or an MMORPG and we cannot accept these awards then it might have turned out differently, but, ANET stood up there and accepted those awards and splashed them all over creation that they had won them too....sooo, did they LIE? It'd be like me accepting the Super Bowl Trophy except I didn't play in the super bowl only the back yard intramural football bowl. lol

Issac · Apr 30, 2008, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Some of those titles are pretty good and fun, and require skill like the protector ones. Then theirs the grind ones that just blow. Like the reputation and SS and LB. They should make those titles account based.

cellardweller · Apr 30, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...That *is* the PvE game.

The GW story line is the equivilent of PvP's random arena - you complete it in order to unlock the required skills, locations and equipment in order to play the game. It provides no challenge and no meaniful measure of success. Once it is complete you can start playing the real PvE guildwars in a game that rewards skill over time.

Quote:

It's the same as what's happened in Final Fantasy, Mass Effect, KotOR, Neverwinter Nights, The Witcher...pretty much *every* RPG. Once you beat the game, you've beaten the game. Why do you feel like you should have to come back? How is Guild Wars different?

Can I point you back at the package deal fallacy?

Burst Cancel · Apr 30, 2008, 12:59 AM // 00:59

GW's business model doesn't work if people keep expecting new content outside of new expansions/campaigns. Normal MMOs try to eat as much of your time as possible so they can keep you paying monthly fees to slowly grind through stuff. As I've said before, grind is the MMO developer's best friend, because it means you don't have to add any real content to keep people playing the game.

If the original premise of GW is to be believed, everybody was supposed to play PvE as a warmup and then switch into the real game - PvP. PvP doesn't really need additional content, because all of the fun is provided by your competition. As long as the playerbase keeps getting better at the game (thus providing more and more challenge to each other), all Anet really had to do was sit back and balance skills, and people would keep playing the game forever - or at least until something better came along. Competition is absolutely the best content around in this respect, because it's self-generating as long as the game mechanics are deep enough to support extended growth of player skill. Case in point: a lot of really old fighting and strategy games are still played at the tournament level to this day.

What's more damning is that some (many? most?) people are not only willing to grind, but actually welcome it. Epeen actually means something to these people. Why wouldn't Anet make them happy, if it takes them almost no effort to do ("hmm, we'll just introduce a new title and set an arbitrary maximum") and keeps people on the hook until they can come out with their next cool gig?

Finally, I'll say it again: Anet tied titles to in-game benefits because skill > time doesn't work for too many players. If players actually had to be good at this game (actually, nevermind good, let's try for 'passable' first), they might as well not play. Ursan is Anet's money-back guarantee. No matter how deathly stupid you are, as long as you invest the time, you can be l33t too! It's that simple.

MithranArkanere · Apr 30, 2008, 02:19 PM // 14:19

But doing them once is just fine.

Why to have to make them so many times with different characters.
You get Hard Mode with all character that reach level 20 after finishing a campaign ONCE.

Why not give the ranks to level 20 characters after finishing the campaign and getting them maxed once?

pumpkin pie · Apr 30, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

its all in the mind, if you think you are grinding, you are

if you think you are having fun playing guild wars then you are having fun.

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, don't look around my eyes, look into my eyes, you're under., its Guild Wars, not Grind Wars, now go have fun. Three, two, one... You're back in the room.

Gregslot · Apr 30, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

its all in the mind, if you think you are grinding, you are

if you think you are having fun playing guild wars then you are having fun.

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, don't look around my eyes, look into my eyes, you're under., its Guild Wars, not Grind Wars, now go have fun. Three, two, one... You're back in the room.

Dude... what have you been using?
Save some for me please?

Its not that its not fun, but god dammit, imagine yourself doing all vanquish in ascalon all over again! Or the Charr areas!
If you have done it once you will NEVER want to go back to that place again.
Specially Grothmar Wardowns

Bryant Again · Apr 30, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

That's because they (Anet) Accepted the Awards for MMO of the Year, MMORPG of the YEAR. Had they stepped up and said ...noooo we are sorry,but, we are NOT an MMO or an MMORPG and we cannot accept these awards then it might have turned out differently, but, ANET stood up there and accepted those awards and splashed them all over creation that they had won them too....sooo, did they LIE? It'd be like me accepting the Super Bowl Trophy except I didn't play in the super bowl only the back yard intramural football bowl. lol

Any publicity is better than no publicity at all. And sadly, one of the biggest selling points for Guild Wars has been others labeling it as a "free to play MMO!!!"

And if they have stated it was an MMO, I'd like to see it. You won't find it on the Guild Wars page.

Quote:

The GW story line is the equivilent of PvP's random arena - you complete it in order to unlock the required skills, locations and equipment in order to play the game. It provides no challenge and no meaniful measure of success. Once it is complete you can start playing the real PvE guildwars in a game that rewards skill over time.

What? Dunno about you, but I was pretty damned satisfied when I beat all the storylines, and for me it was indeed pretty challenging. These days no, but that's because I've beaten them plenty of times. You can't apply those terms, "success" and "challenge", when they are fully subjective.

It's kind of like how people complained about how short Fable was. They just beat the main quest and said "done", but there was sooo much more to do in the game.

Hermos · Apr 30, 2008, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence Chang

Yep.... all Grind nowadays.

Lolno. It's all optional. NONE of it is necessary, apart from if you count the four map pieces as grind... and even that was a reference to WoW, iirc.

Stating personal opinion as fact ftl.

Zsig · Apr 30, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

Its not that its not fun, but god dammit, imagine yourself doing all vanquish in ascalon all over again! Or the Charr areas!
If you have done it once you will NEVER want to go back to that place again.
Specially Grothmar Wardowns

QFT. (12 charac.)